Curse

Phaedrus · Jun 17, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

It's come up time and time again that PvP players are getting shafted by the PvE-friendly system. In some ways that's true. PvP players cannot unlock runes at the same *potential* or *theoretical* speed as PvE players. They cannot unlock new skills while playing PvP. There are toy surprises for PvP players, but they're of a specific sort.

These ideas have come up before, so please forgive me. I'm simply starting a thread because most of this constructive criticism has been buried beneath mountains of whine. I'd like a serious thread to be readily-available for the game designers at ANet.

1) Unlocking skills through PvP

Let's examine potential problems with this. First, being exceedingly good at PvP (or alternately facing exceedingly bad players) will over-reward you. What do I mean? If you gained one skill per victory (not per fame, not per rank) then a truly hardcore PvP player will unlock all his character's skills inside a couple weeks. Faster if he's really that hardcore. If you gained one skill per fame, said players would be able to unlock skills incredibly fast. Even taking premades to start a collection would be viable.

Both of these solutions screw PvE players, who do not really gain skill rewards at regular intervals just for playing: they must specifically finish quests or buy skills. They must find skill trainers who are very out-of-the-way. They must capture elites in annoying places that, due to farming-prevention, have been made royal pains in the ass.

The second problem is how it's regulated. Should it just be a random skill? Should it be a random skill you haven't yet unlocked? Should it be a random skill you haven't unlocked for your current primary or secondary profession? Should it be a non-elite? How do these players gain elite skills then?

I thought about it, and here's my solution: maybe a skill-based reward could work like sigils do now. Three people in your group, after winning a round, each have a skill unlocked (which is currently NOT unlocked) from their primary or secondary profession. Why is this good? For one, skill unlocking doesn't happen too quickly. We don't actually *want* everyone to be able to unlock all skills quickly, otherwise we'll lose players once they have all the Pokemon and get bored with them. Two, it's harder to abuse. A player who clearly isn't useful to a PvP group will have a far smaller chance to earn a skill unlock. This helps prevent leeches (aka the guy who caps and leaves) from flooding the tournament to unlock skills. That guy will still try his best, but it may not be enough.

How is *this* abusable? Well, for one I'd assume if you have all your skills for your primary/secondary unlocked you never get the reward. That will make some people cranky, but it would also mean guilds could *ensure* three people always get skills by filling their team with fully-unlocked players. This would mean a rise in PvE builds designed specifically to unlock skills though PvP. Again, I'm not saying there are players who have *every* skill unlocked--I'm saying there are players who have every skill for their current primary/secondary profession unlocked. This could easily be regulated by forcing the reward no matter what. If I have all my monk/elem skills and I win the "skill lottery" I don't get a reward. Alternately, maybe I win a signet of capture. I think I shouldn't get anything though. This ensures people can't just farm skills through PvP wins early on in the tombs.

So again the question comes up: what about elites?

This is probably the topic I"ll catch the most crap over...I think elites should be rewarded for holding the Hall of Heroes. "BUT OMG BBQ FFS WWJD Those pepal alrady get lotz of loot and exps and sigals!" Yeah, they do. But it's another carrot for people to win the HoH. The people who win the Hall of Heroes already take elite skills. They may not have them all, however. So if holding the Hall ensured the same method of reward, only with elite skills (3/8 chance of unlocking) then that seems nice. It also means you don't over-reward guilds/players who can hold the Hall for long periods of time.

So there's one last problem I see with all of this. What about PvE players who PvP? Unlocking skills isn't really that attractive to me. I have the skills I want in three subclasses and change that as I see fit. If the reward is just the *unlock*, then I'm screwed. I don't actually get the skill, which means I still need to buy it anyway or cap it. Is that fair? I think it is. I think it's fine because I don't think a skill point is that hard to earn. If I'm using a PvE character to PvP it is MY BURDEN to ensure I am up to the challenge. If that means playing PvE to get my skills I will not whine about it. Will others agree? Somehow I doubt it.

That said, it seems pretty fair since there are already more tangible rewards for PvPing.

2) Unlocking runes through PvP

I hate this idea, I really do. But I need to be even-handed and fair, so I will.

Why is this a good thing? Theoretically PvP players can't unlock runes at a reasonable rate. I'm not sure if the chest drops salvage items, so I cannot say conclusively whether or not they even have a chance. I will say, however, that the rate at which a PvE player unlocks runes is not astronomical either.

You can't apply the same solution as above to this. Why? There aren't 75 runes per class to unlock. There are usually around 15-20 total, including minors and majors. That said:

Let one player per victorious round unlock one run for his primary profession or for general professions. For the first round, let this rune be minor. For the second round, let this rune be either minor or major. For the third round, let this rune be minor, major, or superior. Do not give this reward to players holding the Hall of Heroes. Do not give this reward if the player who is selected to unlock the rune already has the rune unlocked. Do not give an actual rune as a reward, just the unlock

"OMG WTF BBQ AFIAK what iz dat all aboot?!"

Well, first of all runes are empowering in a more universal way than a random skill. Second, there are fewer to collect so they should be slower to unlock. Third, arena victories come more quickly than rare salvage items. If they don't come more quickly for you, then the problem is yours, not mine. :P This system allows PvP players to get runes for their new characters without flooding the market with new runes. It also enables PvE players to do the same. It also ensures you aren't unlocking all the superior runes simply from having a great team...you only get runes for your profession, which means you must prove your worth with other professions to stand a chance at unlocking their runes.

How is this abusable? I'm told you can salvage runes from PvP char armor. Is this true of runes you apply through character creation? If so, that should be fixed ASAP. Other than that, I can't see a way of abusing this. If you win the third round you're going to be rewarded with a 1/8 *chance* to get a 1/18 (for the sake of argument) for a superior (whatever). This means a lot of winning to unlock all of those runes. That's good. It also means you're getting a reward for getting this close to the Hall.

"BUT WTF if ur leet enuff to rawk teh HoH u shud get ubar lootz better than every1 else!!!"

Why? Part of the delicious incentive here is to *take* the Hall, not hold it. How interesting it would be if guilds were actually giving something up by holding the hall (and favor for their server). We'd see some guilds and groups lose the Hall on purpose to get rewards again, while others would not. Frankly, I think it's sort of cruel and amusing in its own way...and balancing since again, HoH guilds/teams tend to stay there for a long time.

So I welcome any positive or negative feedback and apologize to those who have said similar things in any form, no matter how specific or thorough.

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Makarei · Jun 17, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

1- Pokemon? cool i didnt know guildwars PvP had Pokemon in it.

2- why not after each battle a team wins in PvP they earn reward points, say 4pts. those reward points can then be used to unlock runes, at the reward master. so saving your reward point to unlock bigger runes. kinda reminds me of shopping for reward points at the supermarket. but hey you might like this idiotic idea.

Phaedrus · Jun 17, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

PvE characters can't choose what runes they unlock, so I don't think it's fair to allow PvP characters to do so.

Pikamentalist, I choose you! Chain lightning attack!

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hydrak · Jun 17, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

If Arena.net really want to be fair to PvP and reward PvE at the same time, they can do the followings:
1. Give PvP creation all the skills and item's mods unlocked. But only give them the basic 1.5k armor sets and 3 primary colors.
2. GW items are mostly about appearances. So they can reward PvE by not giving the PvP characters access to the 15k armor sets, mixed dyes, or any of the underworld/fow items.

Phaedrus · Jun 17, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrak

If Arena.net really want to be fair to PvP and reward PvE at the same time, they can do the followings:
1. Give PvP creation all the skills and item's mods unlocked. But only give them the basic 1.5k armor sets and 3 primary colors.
2. GW items are mostly about appearances. So they can reward PvE by not giving the PvP characters access to the 15k armor sets, mixed dyes, or any of the underworld/fow items.

Alright. I'm armed with my pink dye. And my as-of-yet un modeled Fissure armor. How does that make it fair when I take my PvE character in to PvP and has access to all runes and skills while I do not?

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Makarei · Jun 17, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

I dont understand why you are complaining, then.. The two types of PvE and PvP are differnt from the word go when you make them at the start. so i dont see why it would be a problem. well maybe for the shared stash thingy. but two aternate ways to play guildwars would be nice, Plus PvE should be allowed in PvP places anyways.. thats whats unfair about it.

hydrak · Jun 17, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaedrus

Alright. I'm armed with my pink dye. And my as-of-yet un modeled Fissure armor. How does that make it fair when I take my PvE character in to PvP and has access to all runes and skills while I do not?

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If you want to play PvP, create a character via PvP creation.

Loviatar · Jun 17, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

unlocking anything in pvp only makes the hardcore stronger and further shafts the less hardcore and is fully open to abuse

example is 2 guilds agreeing to exchange losses and victories solely for grabbing the goodies

a small group playing this way would hog almost everything which would be sucky for pvp in general

Phaedrus · Jun 17, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Lovitar:
I should have been clear, I meant these rewards would be in the tombs. You can't really have guilds trading victories and losses like that. If they managed to trade the Hall in such a way, that's more a commentary on everyone else who's playing the tombs, if they can control it so such a degree.

GvG combat is solely for guild ranking. Other PvP has little reward, and I see it more as practice than anything else.

Makarei:
I'm not complaining. I won't be the guy who says "if you'd read the post you'd know that", but I will say I'm simply trying to address concerns PvP players have raised. I'm primarily a PvE player. I enjoy PvPing but it's not my world. It's easy for people like us to say "suck it up and unlock some goddamn skills". Is it conducive to a long-living game? No. It drives off those players who wanted to play PvP almost exclusively.

I'm trying to offer a solution that doesn't rob PvE players of the intrinsic benefits of being a PvE in the PvP world. Saying there is no problem doesn't solve it. Players leave, players get disgruntled, and most of all players complain to varying degrees of constructiveness.

Yeah, PvE and PvP are different things, but they're part of the same game. People need to quit acting like they're surprised PvE exists in their PvP game or PvP exists in their PvE game. ANet has gone to lengths to ensure the systems are linked in some way, and is trying to cater to both "camps". Telling PvP players to quit bitching doesn't really further Anet's goals.

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Slade xTekno · Jun 17, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

I appreciate you arguments, but I do not agree with some major points.

I am wholeheartedly against the idea of Elites being awarded anywhere in PvP, especially for holding the Hall of Heroes. Celestial Sigils are an item that is exclusive to PvPers. Therefore, Elite Skills should remain as something exclusive only to PvEers.

I am all for unlocking skills in PvP, but I am against your system.
If you can only unlock skills of your two professions, there should be a risk that the skill you unlock is one you already have. Only unlocking skills you don't have would be too convenient.
Only if you can unlock skills from all professions should you unlock only skills you don't have, since there are so many that obtaining the last few would be impossible.
However, I do agree that one skill per any victory or two in PvP would be sufficient.

Rune Unlocking is too powerful to be unlocked in simple PvP. There is an unlock shop suggestion that, although it needs work, would be more helpful in the unlocking of items.

Phaedrus · Jun 17, 2005, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Right, but elite skills are usable in PvP, sigils are not. You can buy sigils from a trader without ever PvPing but currently you cannot acquire elite skills without making it past ascension (through whatever means) and capping them. PvE players can buy themselves a guild hall without having to win a single PvP match. PvP players -cannot- get elite skills without playing PvP.

I specified that unlocking skills would unlock unlock those you don't have, unless you've unlocked all skills for your primary/secondary combination in which case you get none.

My goal here isn't to shaft PvE players. It's still easier to hunt an elite than to have a random chance to be rewarded with a random elite. I believe that's sort of ANet's aim: if you play the game fully (meaning both PvE and PvP) you'll have an easier time of both. Sticking to PvE becomes expensive and sticking to PvP means slower advancement.

The unlock shop assumes you have gold, which PvP-only players would not. I can't really back an idea designed to make PvP players less-reliant on PvE if it requires you to play PvE anyway. If it works off of "unlock points" then you're penalizing PvE players who do not have the luxury of choosing which runes unlock for them. The best they can hope for is buying an unidentified rune of the class/level they want and hoping they're lucky.

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Slade xTekno · Jun 17, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaedrus

Right, but elite skills are usable in PvP, sigils are not.

I specified that unlocking skills would unlock unlock those you don't have, unless you've unlocked all skills for your primary/secondary combination in which case you get none.

The unlock shop assumes you have gold, which PvP-only players would not. I can't really back an idea designed to make PvP players less-reliant on PvE if it requires you to play PvE anyway.

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Your first statement contradicts itself; sigils allow you to enter the pinnacle of PvP.

I am aware of what you said, and I stand by my position -
If you victories in PvP only unlock the skills from your character's two professions, there should be a chance that it is one you already have.

I am aware of your last problem and am working on a suggestion on a PvP only currency. I will post a link to it later in this thread when I post it.

EDIT: Please make a note if you edit your post significantly like that. I'm typing my response to additions right now...

EDIT2: Why buy a sigil if you don't PvP? Although you can buy a sigil without touching PvP, there aren't many who will. Possible, but not plausible.

You have yet to suggest a system for Elite skills that isn't skewed to the powerful guilds and victors. We can't hand them out randomly like regular skills, because that is much more powerful a system than is currently present in PvE.

I agree that the game relies on a synergy between the two types of play. However, we cannot hand out everything in just one mode, as that undermines my last statement and your claim.

Phaedrus · Jun 17, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slade xTekno

Your first statement contradicts itself; sigils allow you to enter the pinnacle of PvP.

Not really. PvP and GvG are different things, but that's not really the argument here. You can only use one sigil for your guild...after that you have a guild hall. Why continue to PvP if that's all your goal is?

PvP should be rewarding by itself, but PvP players are expecting to be able to dive straight into PvP without having to play PvE.

I thought about this, being primarily a PvE player. Why is it we're so opposed to this? I'm opposed to the UaS/UaR argument because it cheapens the game for both PvP players and PvE players. It's a quick fix that lessens the fun for everyone. Adding a slow rewards system to PvP means you could take a ready-made build and potentially work your way to having all your skills and runes without ever setting foot in the PvE world. Again, I think about why I would be opposed to that, and I find no reason why I reasonably can. I believe I learn better by playing PvE. I believe I prepare myself better by playing PvE. But should all people have to? No, they shouldn't...I shouldn't dictate to anyone how he should have to play the game to be successful. That's what Guild Wars is about...players designing unique builds for themselves to create a great experience for themselves.

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Slade xTekno · Jun 17, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaedrus

Not really. PvP and GvG are different things, but that's not really the argument here. You can only use one sigil for your guild...after that you have a guild hall. Why continue to PvP if that's all your goal is?

PvP should be rewarding by itself, but PvP players are expecting to be able to dive straight into PvP without having to play PvE.

I thought about this, being primarily a PvE player. Why is it we're so opposed to this? I'm opposed to the UaS/UaR argument because it cheapens the game for both PvP players and PvE players. It's a quick fix that lessens the fun for everyone. Adding a slow rewards system to PvP means you could take a ready-made build and potentially work your way to having all your skills and runes without ever setting foot in the PvE world. Again, I think about why I would be opposed to that, and I find no reason why I reasonably can. I believe I learn better by playing PvE. I believe I prepare myself better by playing PvE. But should all people have to? No, they shouldn't...I shouldn't dictate to anyone how he should have to play the game to be successful. That's what Guild Wars is about...players designing unique builds for themselves to create a great experience for themselves.

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As you can see in the quote in my last post, that is what I thought about your initial post. You cannot edit your post and then take my statement out of context.

I personally think PvE is the first step that everyone must take, even if only once. PvP already hands you everything you have earned in PvE, why give it more? If you could play just PvP and obtain everything you could in PvE, there would be no incentive to playing PvE [unless you have a Rurik fetish].

EDIT: Explain to my how PvP and GvG are not the same thing. GvG is simply one step up in organized play. It's like going from Friday Night Magic to Pro Tour.

Phaedrus · Jun 17, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

I didn't mean offense, I was editing my post before I saw a reply.

I agree with you about PvE, but the game seems designed contrary to that belief. Why fight it?

As for PvP vs. GvG, many PvP-only players don't have ubar-competetive guilds. They'd rather hold the Hall than boost their own guild standing. Anyone can PvP in the tombs, but not everyone can GvG. Having an organized fight with another clan also comes with the expectation that each side will have done as much recon as possible. Fighting your way through the tombs is, in large part, a test of flexibility. You can build a team to beat the current flavor of the month, but what about the other teams who aren't using it? GvG is, to a degree, similar but you aren't facing wave after wave of changing tactics. You're loading up for one battle where the best strategy is to know your opponent.

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Talesin Darkbriar · Jun 17, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Phaedrus, I am sorry you are disgruntled.
Allow me to illuminate for you what i thought was painfully obvious to everyone regarding PvP and PvE.

Any roleplaying game is about development: You begin as a weak milk-toast excuse for your class, but burning within you is the unquenchable burning desire to someday be feared as MEGALOEMPEROR PHAEDRUS.

The instant PvP class choice is for our Diablo2 players (and similar titles) That simply cannot abide by the extra time required to actually play a character up, but mst kill now! I've tried it myself a dozen times and its fine; it works, and it allows you to get a taste of the high end (albeit limited) game.

So for sake of argument, you patiently powergame yourself up to 20th in 48 hours straight, and curse of curses, you don't automatically have access to everything in the game!

Did I miss anything?
. . .

Aye, obviously the game is fatally flawed. Your Pokemon powers denied! All I can say at this point is you would be better served to play a different game; perhaps Sims2 or Train Tycoon?

Regards,

Talesin